艺术和生活一样，随时充满了冒险和各种可能性

访谈时间：2007年10月
访谈地点：北京曹静萍工作室
访谈人物：当代艺术策展人：朱彤（以下简称朱）
艺术家：曹静萍（以下简称曹）

朱：    我们先从你的个人生活方面聊吧，你是四川人吗？
曹：    是的，我是四川重庆人。来北京之前一直就在重庆，包括我的中学，大学，研究生到最后留校都在重庆。

朱：    那你对重庆这个城市有怎样的感觉？
曹： 重庆在我的眼里是一座“魔幻”的城市。在这之前我都没有觉得，一直到我作为交换学生去了德国，回来后才发现重庆作为一个“年轻”的城市，它有很多奇怪的地方。和欧洲许多城市相比，在城市中心的地方比如像重庆的解放碑，它可以有二、三十年代的建筑也可以有很摩登的建筑。就像电影《疯狂的石头》里面的罗汉寺和大都会商业中心形成了非常鲜明的对比，它实际上是中国现代社会的缩影，可以在很小的空间里体现出现代化的发展和过去的传统。所以我说重庆是个很浓缩很魔幻的城市。黄桷坪就更加典型，像黄桷坪街道上的涂鸦与旧电场的烟囱就形成了很尖锐的对比。

朱：    非常本土、非常生活化的重庆对你个人艺术有什么样的影响？
曹： 其实只要从小生长在一个地方，他的骨子里本身就有当地文化的烙印。比如说，虽然我们现在生活的方式已经非常西化了，但是在思想模式，主观直觉，人文感官还是非常中国化的。

朱：    你早期的作品蝴蝶、锁链和水的系列中，体现出了一种沉静的中国式的超现实，谈谈你作品最初的灵感来源？
曹： 开始创作这些作品的时候，我一直在想把坚硬的东西和柔软的东西做个对比。我记得自己本科毕业展览的创作，很多绞手架上爬满了像藤蔓一样的向日葵。因为当时重庆有很多中心地带都在建设，特别是解放碑到处布满了脚手架。我看见人群在里面穿梭，让我觉得生命是个很弱小的东西，然而生命又是很自由的东西。但是在“自由”与“非自由”之间，有很微妙的对比关系。后来的画面主体又从向日葵转到昆虫上面。比如说，一个蜜蜂从狭长的通道里面飞出来等等，我的绘画主题一直以来都是对生命本身的关注。

朱： 是这样的。很多川美的艺术家，包括很多老艺术家，他们的作品中都体现了对生命、对社会的人文关怀。他们大多的角度是很宏观的，而你却好象很微观。
曹： 在我看来昆虫更加弱小，对于人的角度来说更无所谓。我选择昆虫的题材，跟我的一些个人经历也有一些关系。在大学的阶段我非常喜欢古典绘画，在德国念书的几年看了很多东西，所以后来的作品在形式上也有一些变化。有人说过一句话：“跟自己喜欢的古典艺术大师说再见。”我很认同，当时我很喜欢鲁本斯的作品，但是到一定阶段以后，我决定要离开他的路线，找寻自己的风格。大学毕业的时候我就已经领悟到这一点了，这其实也是四川美术学院的一个传统。

朱： 中国艺术家的早期教育阶段一般都是经历了传统的学院教育。他们大多受到苏联的艺术教育体系的影响，也有少部分受到欧洲其它的像意大利文艺复兴或法国印象派什么的。而你在国外的学习让你感受了许多新的艺术风格和样式。而在川美这样一所艺术氛围宽松的学校学习，都促使了你在个人艺术的道路上寻找一种新的突破方式的可能。近几年来你的作品似乎有了一个跨越，以前是从微观局部的角度传达艺术主题，而现在的作品中表现出了很多大的场景，为什么会有这样的转变呢？
曹： 我想通过作品主体的坚硬与柔软的对比，来表达我的想法，就像生活中会遇到很多艰难，而生命又很容易失去，我在找这两种东西的对比，用锈蚀的铁来表现坚硬的质感，然后用很漂亮的蝴蝶来隐喻一种很美好但是易破碎的生命。使得他们两者之间有很微妙的关联在里面，哪怕是铁的这种很坚固的东西，随着时间的流逝，最终也会消逝掉的。新系列作品中的海洋让人觉得非常“孤寂”，而且昆虫是不可能在海面上飞行的。因此，我的作品命名为“飘”，就是随风而逝的意思。是借助了名著《飘》的翻译，画面的背景部分我处理得很平面，很空旷，因为我对传统的东西非常感兴趣，尤其在留校后对传统的绘画和雕塑越来越着迷，这个爱好潜移默化地对我的作品产生了一定的影响，使得我对传统绘画中的“空”、“虚无”都特别有感触，所以在我近几年的作品中有很多背景平面化的处理，就好象传统中国画中的“留白”，融入了一种东方的意境在里面。

朱： 中国传统人文思想在你的作品中体现出来的“禅意”、“虚无”、“天人合一”并不是你可以刻意迎合的，而是中国传统文化在你身上自然而然、潜移默化的影响。很多中国的当代艺术家都有类似的体验，在他们的早期绘画中很大程度上受到的是西方艺术体系的影响，但是到了一定程度以后，特别是近几年很多艺术家的作品开始跟中国传统文化发生很多关联，这种现象在中国当代艺术家中非常普遍。
曹： 只要你生活在这个国家中，你就会带有这个国度的文化特点。比如说在我早一点的作品中，蝴蝶和锁链的比例，如果单看锁链基本上是原大的，而蝴蝶的比例实际上是放大了的。在单独看这两个主体的时候各自都非常真实，但是蝴蝶和锁链放在一起看的时候，就给观众在视觉上造成了一种隐隐的“不安”。这种不安的来源就是比例造成的。中国传统绘画中一直很强调“散点透视”，中国人观察景物的方式长久以来和西方人是不一样的。尽管我早期的绘画中借用了很多西方绘画的技巧，但是本质上还是有许多东方画面的特点。

朱： 刚刚你所提到的“不安”，我在看你作品的时候也深有感触。单从视觉的角度上讲，你的作品给人的感觉非常美，但作品中隐含的“不安”有更深层的含义，这种“不安”通过“坚硬”与“柔软”，“美丽”与“锈迹”的对比表现出来，尤其是中国人“自怜自哀”的感觉。不仅仅在中国，像日本等东方国家的人对“生命无常”都有非常深刻的感触。现在很多艺术家都在思考和反省自身艺术与文化的对话。虽然每个人的表现形式不同，有些艺术家的作品带有强烈、尖锐的批判性，而在你的艺术作品中却是很自我的、内心化的表达。
曹： 对，特别是近期的一些作品，更加反映了我内心的世界。我以前附中学过国画，所以我特别强调了传统国画线条的技法。有一张作品是波涛汹涌的海，我画得非常吃力，大概画了有两个月，在这张作品中，技法上有传统山水画的感觉，意境上传达的是东方的意境，但是在视觉效果上，我更加倾向于照片的形式感。我不可能完全照抄中国传统山水的模式，但是我可以在他们的基础上有自己的探索。最近的作品《春》、《夏》、《秋》、《冬》中包括了一些中国传统武侠情节的画面，因为我自身特别喜欢读武侠小说，尤其是金庸的作品。

朱： 大多数的中国人都喜欢看金庸的作品，因为在他的小说里面包含了很多个人英雄主义，生命的大喜大悲等等，中国人很容易把内心所追求的东西寄托在里面。
曹：   我觉得他的小说有点像清末的二流山水画一样，描述的场景都很写实，但是表达的却是东方的韵味。

朱： 从中国传统文化的历史来看，这种山水画也许是不很入流的，但是经过今天当代艺术语境的转换后，它会变成一种非常有意思的艺术语言。有一点“似曾相识”又带有一些“突兀”，很多这样的作品给当代艺术带来很多新的东西。当然这种作品会有一些“风险性”，比如说作品的绘画语言不够强烈，不像一些“宏大叙事”的作品是有批判性的。
曹： 我个人来说，不会太在乎外界对我的作品的看法。我是一个比较安静的人，从我的名字上就可以看出来。我很内向，比较注重自我内心的表达。

朱：    你的作品很私密、纤细、脆弱和敏感。
曹： 是这样的，其实我以前做过一些日记性质的作品，这些作品是对我身边社会的一种关照，但日记本身就是很敏感，很私密的东西。

朱：    你属于当代艺术家中不是冲在最前面、最先锋、最前卫的，而是在自己的领域慢慢经营的人。你的心境非常平和。
曹： 做艺术就是做你自己，很多艺术家都有同样的看法。艺术家有很多种，有些艺术家的作品很有社会批判性，但不一定是好艺术家。因为现在艺术很多元化，我认为一个艺术家的作品只要还有人能理解，还有人愿意去关注，那他的作品就有存在的价值。到目前为止，我还没有做社会题材的计划，我觉得那会非常累，而且我做的大部分都是反映艺术本身的东西。

朱： 不同的艺术家对艺术的创作和理解有不同的方式，我们很难去比较这样两个艺术家：古代画家马远的洞庭山水和近代日本艺术家山本博斯照片中平静的海，看似意境相近的两幅作品，但他们却是在不同时间、不同空间、不同文化背景下产生的。文化之间的传承与交融就是这样潜移默化的。你对中国的传统文化感兴趣吗？
曹： 中国传统的绘画看的比较多，画论看的就比较少，我最喜欢的还是石涛的画论。我印象最深刻的是在92年，外出写生回来的途中，我花了整天的时间把整本画论都背下来了。在我的作品中不经意间表露出来的很多东西都跟这有关系。像我作品中的海水的画法，实际上是受马远山水和日本浮士绘的影响，马远山水的线条感和浮士绘的色彩以及西方现代的摄影理念都融入了我的作品中。

朱：    你有没有想过或者曾经尝试过绘画以外的媒介来做你的艺术？
曹： 以前是没有，最近一个比较偶然的机会，在西藏的一个活动中，想到做一个方案叫做：“如影随形”，探讨的是禅宗的空与无，以及山水画中的人文情趣等等，把我的一些思考融入到作品当中去，首先是拍摄照片，然后再在真实的影象上面进行绘画，再把过程记录下来，最后投射到一些实物上，有可能是一座山峰，一块石头或者是一棵树。我觉得作为艺术家如果手段更加多样化，你的表达会更加自由化。以前我也做过一些摄影的尝试，包括在川美的毕业展上，也有用video去做作品，但是后来精力上只能照顾到绘画，希望在以后的创作中能有更多的艺术表现形式。

朱： 多媒介的创作能够更好的表达艺术家的思想，现在很难界定一个艺术家的具体身份是摄影家、画家还是雕塑家，艺术家可以用各种各样的手段来表达自己，在当代艺术中很多艺术家开拓了艺术语言的各种可能性。一件艺术品很难通过一种媒介去界定，也许这可能是未来艺术的一个发展趋势，。
曹：   从艺术打动人的角度来考虑，一件作品加入了声音和影象的感官刺激，会更加丰富，更能打动人。

朱：    重庆和北京这两座城市给你带来的感受有什么不同？
曹： 我到北京两年了，给我的感觉是很震惊，可能这两年国内艺术市场发展得比较快，特别是去年，北京798每天都有一家画廊开幕，那种感觉太迅猛了。而在重庆的生活节奏要缓慢一些，本来我以为重庆已经是个活力四射的城市，但是北京还要疯狂，北方平原的空旷使得人的思路也更加开阔一些。北京有更多的冒险和各种可能性，我曾经在我的日志中写过这样一句话：“生活就像一条直线一样，一条道走到底，是多么的索然无味。”虽然有新的变化不一定是什么好事，但是在失去的同时也会有新的收获，平静的生活总要寻求新的刺激。

Art, as with life, is full of adventures and possibility

Date of interview: October 2007
Location: Cao Jingping’s studio – Beijing, China
Interviewer: Contemporary art curator Zhu Tong
Interviewee: Artist Cao Jingping

Zhu:     Let‘s start from your personal life, are you from Sichuan?

Cao:  Yes, I am from Sichuan, Chongqing. That is where I lived, completed my education and taught in a university before coming to Beijing.

Zhu:     What kind of feelings do you have towards Chongqing?

Cao:  In my eyes, Chongqing is like a magical city. I haven’t felt this way until I went to Germany as a visiting student. I found out that as a young city, Chongqing has a lot of peculiar things. Compared with several European cities, many parts of the city center areas, such as Jiefangbei, is juxtaposed with modern architectures as well as those built back in the 1920s or 1930s. Just like in the movie Crazy Stone, the marrying of the temple and the buildings of modern business centers strikes a vivid contrast. It is a midget of Chinese modern society, showcasing the development of modernization and the tradition of the past in a small space. That is why I think Chongqing is a concentrated magical city. Huangjueping is more typical on that point, for example, the doodle in the streets and the chimneys of the old power plant plays a sharp contrast. 

Zhu:    What kind of influence have you acquired in your personal art from the very multitudinous life-style of Chongqing?

Cao:  One will have a deep mark of the local culture of which he had grown up. For example, although our lifestyle is becoming more westernized, yet on most aspects such as our way of thinking, subjective influence, Cultural sensitivity and so on, we still maintain the Chinese style.

Zhu:  Your earlier works, such as the series of butterflies, chains and water, portrayed a calm, Chinese-style surrealism. Can you talk about the origin behind your primary inspiration?

Cao:  When I began to create these works, I always think about making a contrast between hard and soft things. I remember among the works for my undergraduate exhibition, there are vine-like sunflowers everywhere crawling on scaffoldings. Because at that time a lot of center areas in Chongqing were building, especially around the Jiefangbei area, scaffoldings were anywhere. I saw people coming and going through it, I had a feeling that actually life is a very weak thing, and it is a feeling creature as well. Yet there is a subtle difference between the free and the unfree. Later on, my subjects of painting had been transferred from sunflowers to insects, such as a bee flying from a narrow tunnel and so on. My subject of painting has always been on the concern of life itself.

Zhu:  A lot of artists in Sichuan Fine Art Institute, including the more matured artists, were showcasing an altruistic concern towards life and society. Most of them have a macroscopic view towards things, whereas your angle seems more microscopic. Can you explain this? 

Cao:  From my own perspective, and from the perspective of most people, insects seem small and weak. The reason I picked insects as a subject has something related to my personal experience. When I was a college student, I was very fond of classical paintings. However, during my stay in Germany, I read through many materials which brought about certain changes in style on my later works. I remember someone once declared ”say goodbye with classical masters.” I agree with that. I used to be very fond of Rubens, yet after graduation, and when I reached a certain stage in my career, I decided to leave his style in pursuit of my own. This also happens to be a tradition in Sichuan Fine Art Institute.

Zhu:  Normally the early education of Chinese artists is traditional academic education. Most of them carry an influence of the formal Soviet Union education system. Yet a few of them have influence from the Italian Renaissance, French impressionism or something alike. You have encountered many fresh art styles overseas. On top of that you studied in Sichuan Fine Art Institute, an institute with relatively relaxed art atmosphere. All of them provide a possibility for you to seek out a breakthrough in your personal art career. These years, you works seem to have reached a new milestone. Your angle of expression has changed from a microscopic view into a style with many major events involved. Why do you have this transfer?

Cao:  I want to express my thoughts through the comparison between hard and soft. As with life, there are a lot of difficulties we will meet. Life is fragile. I look for the comparison between these two things – using the rusty iron to express the roughness of hard creatures and then using beautiful butterflies to imply the wonderful yet fragile life. By combining the two things with a subtle relation, it shows that even creatures which are tough as iron will eventually disappear with the passing of time. In particular, the ocean makes people feel a sense of lonesomeness, and it is impossible for insects to fly right above the ocean. So I named my work “drift”, which means drifting with the wind with the help from the translation of the classic piece “Gone with Wind”. I handle the background quite flat and empty, because I have great interest in classic things, especially after I began to teach in my University, I became more and more fond of traditional paintings and sculptures. The fondness toward them had made a certain civilizing influence on my works, made me develop a special sensitivity toward the “empty” and “nihility” within traditional paintings. That’s why I have a lots of complication settlement toward the background in my works, just like how the” Margin Leaving” in traditional Chinese painting embraced a sense of eastern culture in it.       

Zhu:  The expression of traditional Chinese humanity thought such as” dhyana”, ” nihility “ and  “the Unity of Heaven and Man“  in your works were not done by purpose. It’s just a natural civilizing influence you received from the traditional Chinese culture. Lots of contemporary Chinese artists have the similar experience, they were mainly influenced by the Western art style on early times, but after they reached on a certain level, they become be more connected with traditional Chinese culture. This is a common phenomenon among contemporary Chinese artists.

Cao:  As long as you live in this country, you will naturally bring the cultural features of the country with you. For instance, in my early work, you can see that the chain is in the original size yet the butterflies are magnified. While each individual subject does not look disproportional on its own, looking at the picture as a whole makes one feel disturbed with its disorientation. The origin of the uneasiness is the proportion of the two creatures. In traditional Chinese painting, people have always pay great attention on “spreading perspective”, the way Chinese people observe art subject is different from Westerners. Although I had used lots of western techniques in my early works, essentially, those works are still rooted with lots of eastern features.

Zhu:  Talk about “uneasiness”, I have a deep feeling about it as well. Aesthetically, your works bring about a feeling of beauteousness, but the “uneasiness” implied within the work boasts a relatively deeper meaning. The sense of “uneasiness” is expressed through the comparison between “hardness“ and “softness”, ”beauty“ and “ rusty“ – especially the feeling of Chinese self-pity. Not only in China, in Japan and other eastern countries people have strong sense of “uncertainty of life” as well. These days lots of artists are thinking and self-questioning, conducting a dialogue between personal art and the majority culture. Any one has a different way of expression, some of them have a extreme, sharp criticality. Yet in your works, it was a expression more personal and focus on the inner feelings of your heart .

Cao:  Yes. This applies especially to some of my recent works that more strongly reflects the world deep within myself. I used to study traditional Chinese painting, so I especially addressed on the techniques of lines within traditional Chinese painting. Among them there is a work of proud sea, it was hard work. I spent 2 months on it. In that work, technically it has a feeling of traditional Chinese landscape painting, which expresses the eastern artistic conception. But visually, I tend to make it close to a photography form. I cannot totally copy the traditional mode of traditional Chinese landscape painting, but I can make my own explorations based on those materials. My recent works Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter includes some scenes of Chinese traditional adventures, because I like knight errant novel very much, especially fond of Jin Yong’s work .

Zhu:  Most Chinese are fond of Jin Yong’s work, because his novels involved lots of individual heroism, exultation and great pity in life. Chinese people tend to revel in it.

Cao:  I think his work resembled a second grade landscape painting, with natural description on scenes, yet they are expressing an eastern-style kind of charm.

Zhu:  From the view of historical traditional Chinese culture, those kinds of landscape paintings may not be highly regarded. Yet after the transmission into the language of contemporary art, it becomes a very interesting artistic language. With some feelings of déjà vu plus a little sharp edgyness, most of the similar works will bring fresh elements into modern art. Yet some works of this kind will bring a sense of “risk”, such as the language of painting might not be strong enough, unlike some “magnificent narration” with it’s own criticalness.

Cao:  Personally, I don’t care what people think about my work, these works expressed my concern towards the society I live in. Those kind of thing is quite sensitive and personal.   

Zhu:  Among the all the contemporary artists, you are not the vanguard, the most modern and advance one. You are the one take who things slow in your own felid, and have a calm mode.

Cao:  To be an artist is to be yourself. Many different forms of art have the same thought. There are many kinds of artists. Some artists’ works have strong social criticalness, but they are not always good artists. Because the contemporary art is tend to be more diversified. I think if the works of an artist can be understood by people, can attract the attention of others, his work is worth existing. Until now, I have yet to make any plans about social subject, I think it will be tiresome. Most works I have done is about the reflection of art itself.

Zhu:  Different artists have different ways to understand and create the art. It is very seldom that we can compare two artists like: Ancient painter Dongting’s landscape work and the photography of a peaceful ocean by modern Japanese artist Shanbenosi. It seems like the two have a similar motion, yet they were created at different time, a different space and different cultural background. The transmission and embracement of culture is a process imperceptibly influenced by each other. Are you interested in traditional Chinese culture as well?

Cao:  I have seen a lot of traditional Chinese paintings, but I haven’t read much on the critiques. My favorite critic is ShiTao. I remember in the year 1992, I came back from a sketch trip and spent an entire day just to recite the entire book of his critiques. A lot of unintentional expression within my works is related to it, such as the way I paint the ocean in my work. Actually they are influenced by Mayuan’s landscape painting and the Japanese Yamato-e. I combined the vivid expression of lines within Mayuan’s works, the colors of Japanese Yamato-e, and the modern western photography theory into my works.

Zhu:    Have you ever thought using some other media to do your art except painting?

Cao:  I haven’t done it before but recently had an opportunity during a Tibetan event. There is a subject called “with shadow, following shape“. It discusses the emptiness and nihility in Zen Buddhism, the humanity within landscape paintings, etc. At that time, I wanted to put some of my thought into my work. Firstly I take pictures, then draw on the natural figures, record the process, and lastly, projecting it into some real things, say a mountain, a stone or a tree. I think if the artist’s way to do art is more diversified, he will have more freedom on expression. I previously tried some work on photography, including those works in the graduation show in Sichuan Fine Art Institute. I also tried to do videos, but later I found out I only can put my focus in painting. I hope I can have multiple ways to express my art in the future.

Zhu:  Multi-media creation can better express the thoughts of an artist. These days we can hardly identify the artist as a photographer, painter, or sculptor. Artists can express themselves through many different ways. In the field of contemporary art, lots of artists have explored many possibilities on new art languages. An art piece can hardly identify with just one media. It seems like a developing trend of future art.

Cao:  Consider it from an artistic viewpoint, if an artwork embraced the stimulations of sound and video, it will definitely become more vivid, and easier for people to relate to.

Zhu:    How do you feel towards Chongqing as compared to Beijing?   

Cao:  I have been in Beijing for two years. Actually I was quite shocked by the city. In those two years, the domestic art market has developed greatly especially in last year. There is a new art gallery opening in the 798 area every single day. This development is overwhelming. Whereas in Chongqing, the pace of life is relatively slower. I used to think of Chongqing as an energetic city, but Beijing is crazier than Chongqing. The emptiness of Northern plains will leave more open space in people’s mind. Beijing is full adventures and possibilities. I once wrote in my diary: “life is like a straight line, regardless of the distance you walk, the end is still tasteless.” Although new changes cannot always be good, yet when we lose certain things, we acquire new things as well. Peaceful life needs its dose of stimulations as well.