Time: November 22, 2015

Location: Art Café, White Box Art Museum

时间：2015年11月22日

地点：白盒子艺术馆咖啡厅

Cao Maochao (Abbreviated as Cao below): Mr. He, compare to the previous ones, this exhibition is making a breakthrough, it has even overthrown our general impression of your practice, from artistic medium adopted and the subject matter chosen, you have shown various different aspects in this exhibition. For instance, they are different from the abstract painting and installation shown in your first exhibition, under what kind of condition has such creative ideas risen?

曹茂超（以下简称曹）：何老师，本次展览与以往的展览相比突破性很大，甚至可以说可以颠覆一贯的的创作面貌，从创作媒介以及创作题材两个方面都有很多与以往不同的东西呈现。比如首次展出抽象绘画和装置作品，这个创作思路的转变是在一种什么状态下产生的？

He Wenjue (Abbreviated as He below): The works in this exhibition have indeed shown drastic variations from my previous works. At the same time, they are not necessarily complete and abrupt transformations. They are accumulated experience from within over many years. In fact, I have been thinking about installation and making proposals since 2006, and until now, I have more than 100 proposals. I am an extremely precise person, and am very mindful of the quality of my artworks. Previously, I have been focusing on making works on canvas, which didn’t allow me to execute any of my installation plans. In the recent few years, I have discovered a number of interesting events through various media channels and on-site visits, other artists have made many of the proposals I had. I felt the time is right, I should present the other aspect of my artistic practice.

何汶玦（以下简称何）：这个展览的作品的确与我之前展览呈现的作品有比较大的差异。但是，这并非是突然进行了彻头彻尾的改变，这里面有这我多年的积淀，其实我从2006年开始就已经在进行装置作品的方案的构思，积累到现在至少有100多个方案。但我是一个做事情极其严谨的人，很在意作品的品质。之前我一直在进行着架上绘画的创作，因此一直没有将装置作品创作出来。最近几年在我通过各种信息传播途径以及现场参观发现了一些有意思的事情，我自己方案库里的很多方案，很多艺术家已经做出来了。我觉得时机成熟了，十年磨一剑，应该把我创作的另一面呈现出来了。

In fact, I have been studying and researching on abstract art over the years, some of my abstract works have not been exhibited. While we were preparing for this exhibition, suddenly there was a “wave of abstraction”, and I did feel like the need to follow this trend. I had initially wanted to add two abstract works, instead, I thought, I’d rather make the exhibition more pure and powerful.

关于抽象绘画，其实我研究了很多年，也有抽象绘画的创作只是一直没有拿出来展览。就在筹备这个展览的时候，忽然出来了一个“抽象热”，所以，我就觉得就不要赶这个时髦了，这次展览本来准备放两件抽象作品，后来改变了想法，倒不如让展览更加纯粹，更有力量。

《权力、情欲、死亡》 "Power, Lust, Death"; 不锈钢 Stainless Steel; 尺寸可变 Variable Size; 2006

《公正审判（公正拍卖）》 "Fair Trial / Justice Auction "; 青铜、汉白玉、24K黄金 Bronze、white marble and 25K gold; 110cm x 21cm x56.5cm; 2012-2013

Cao: Besides the changes in the medium and subject matter, the creative context and implications of the artworks are also changing, in your previous series, theWater series is related to your childhood experience, the water pond in your hometown carried many of your childhood memories, Movie Watching is inspired by your mother’s job at the film company, an environment you have been immersed in since a child, therefore you have an affinity to film. You’ve painted film posters more than twenty years ago; in 2013, in your 2013 solo exhibition curated by Yin Jun, Everyday Moving Images, you have extended your artistic perspective into our present time, translating the everyday spectacle and life scenarios into one’s own discourse, this is a clear train of thought.

曹：除了创作媒介与题材的变化，作品创作的背景及内涵也有很大的变化，在你之前的几个系列中，《水》系列与儿时的经历有关，家乡的水塘承载了许多关于童年的记忆，《看电影》的创作灵感源于母亲在电影公司工作，自幼耳濡目染，所以你对电影有一种情节，而且20多年前就画过电影海报；2013年，由段君在白盒子艺术馆策划的个展《日常影像》中，则将创作视角延伸至我们身处的这个时代，对日常的景观及生活现场进行了自我艺术语言的转述与修辞，这是有一条明了的线索的。

And while the works in this exhibition span in a wide range of clues, they are also showing in-depth explorations. Many works follow a historical chronology, which can be somewhat serious in comparison to previous ones. Painting politics fromthe barrel of a gun, Fair judgment (fair auction) seems to reveal certain resentful attitude in their inspirations. Why did you shift your perspective to this relatively serious subject?

而这次展览的作品在横向的线索中进行了纵深式挖掘。很多作品做了历史线索的梳理，相比之前有些沉重。《枪杆子里面出政权》《公正审判（公正拍卖）》这些作品在创作思想上似乎都有着某种对抗的情绪。为什么会将视角转向这种相对沉重的题材？

He: My works in fact draw from the oriental wisdom in China. I have always been immersed in traditional Chinese culture, in which many abstruse points of view and ways of thinking have provided me abundant sources of inspiration. I can use some of my artworks as examples, in this exhibition, the work Touch a stone and turn it into gold, comes from an ancient Chinese adage of the county official Xu Xun used spells to turn stones into rocks in order to help the farmers to make up for government tax in the Jin Dynasty. While “Touching a stone and turn it into gold” in modern times has transformed and hybridized semantics, that often is used to emphasize the ability to assign power, that almost has the meaning of “pointing the deer as a horse” or “Three people report the tiger”. Such power allows those in the office to turn the degenerate into mystery, or even manipulating regulations personally. Therefore, this work reveals certain negative inclinations in the present society on a certain level, while it expresses my own vigilant attitude towards the time we live in.

何：我的作品其实都是源于中国的东方智慧，我一直以来受中国传统文化的浸淫，其中很多玄妙的观点和思维方式给予我丰富的创作灵感。我可以以我的几个作品为例子，这次展览有件作品叫《点石成金》，它源于中国的传统典故，说晋朝县令许逊施符作法，将石头变成金子帮助农民抵掉赋税的故事，但是现代社会的“点石成金”语义已经出现变化和衍生，更多的时候强调的是一种强权的支配能力，几乎都要有“指鹿为马”“三人成虎”的含义。这些权力让当权者拥有了化腐朽为神奇的能力，甚至可以对规则进行人为操纵。所以，这件作品在某种层面显示了当前社会的一种不良倾向，同时也表达了我自身对所处时代保持警惕的态度。

The resentful attitude you have mentioned is perhaps related to two of my works that refer to a “dialectical” concept. For instance, Fair Judgment(Fair Auction), in fact the subject of the “final judgment” is a subject that has been explored by many western masters since the post-renaissance period in the west, like the “Last Supper”, it is a classic subject that has appeared repeatedly in Western paintings, “judgment” refers to certain rules and power, so I made two auctiongavels, one in gold, the other in white marble, the gavels symbolize fairness and integrity, that needs to maintain the standard of the judgment, a unwavering standard of judgment, that the power in the system of judgment is built around it, thus it is made in gold. However, the world is a conflicting system, are the standardized system we look up and follow a series of utopian imagination? Is there a fragile dark side behind it, it may seem pure and genuine, in fact the fragile white marble is precisely a good metaphor.

你讲的对抗情绪，可能因为我有两件作品其实是涉及到了一种“辩证”的创作观念，比如，《公正审判（公正拍卖）》，其实“最后的审判”这是一个自西方文艺复兴之后，很多西方大师都创作过的题材，就如同“最后的晚餐”一样，是西方绘画的重复出现的经典题材，“审判”也是体现了某种规则与权威，所以这件作品我做了两个拍卖的槌子，一把黄金制作的，一把是汉白玉的，槌子象征着公正与诚信，是需要维护的评判准则，这个评判准则是不可撼动的，围绕着它建立起权威的评判体系，因此它是黄金制作的。但是这个世界又是矛盾的统一体，所以我们所遵守的，奉为圭臬的权威评判体系是否其实只是一系列的乌托邦式的幻想，它背后是否有不可一击的阴暗面，表面看起来洁白纯净，其实脆弱的汉白玉正好是其最好的暗喻。

《枪杆子里面出政权》 "Regime out of the Gun"; 青铜、汉白玉、24K黄金 Bronze、white marble and 24K gold; 126cm x 6.5cm x 18cm x 2; 2010-2013

Cao: Let’s talk about the theme of this exhibition, “Power, Lust, Death”, these three terms in my opinion point at the most primitive instincts. Using primitive society as an example, the head of a tribe has the priority to choose a partner, and his death would also be highly respected, the scenario is still valid today. This subject is straightforward, revealing certain confusion in today’s society, a subject that nakedly draws consensus. What is your opinion on this theme?

曹：我们接下来谈谈关于展览主题，“权力、情欲、死亡”，这三组词汇其实在我看来，它们都指向了人类最原始的本能。以原始社会为例，群居的原始人的首领就有优先获得配偶的权力，而其死亡也会受到最高待遇，当今社会依然如此。这个主题直截了当，剥掉了当今社会的纷扰，赤裸的呈现了当今社会中最能引起共鸣的话题。你怎么看待这个主题？

He: I think most people are trapped by power, lust and death from the beginning to the end. Your analogy is quite appropriate. People’s aspirations are still quite primitive in the present society; they are trapped by materials. I think it is the most appropriate element that binds all three subjects, thus, I am using a large quantity of gold. From ancient times to the present, gold has always been the most last currency of exchange, it’s a symbol of materials, its relationships with power, erotic desires and death are apparent. When people are trapped materialistically, they wouldn’t have higher aspirations, or any ultimate ideals.

何：我认为大部分的人自始至终都受困于权力、情欲、死亡。你刚才的这个比喻很恰当，现在的社会人类的追求仍然非常的原始，受困于物质。我觉得物质是将这三者结合的最恰当的，因此我在本次展览中大量的运用了黄金，因为古今中外，黄金一直是最为坚挺的流通货币，它是物质的象征，黄金与权力、情欲、死亡的关系一目了然。人受困于物质，就不会有更高的精神追求，不会有终极理想。

看电影-青春 Watch Movie-Cheongchun 布面油画 Oil on Canvas 2007 200cmx300cm

《我的日记》"My Diary"; 瓷 Ceramic; 40x50cm; 2015 

Cao: Moreover, these three terms are traceable in chronology of your previous works, for instance, there are a number of images representing erotic desires inMovie Watching, as well as in Youth, Love and Hate, in 2011 Dinner Party, through the mouth of the wealthy in this society, to contemplate the current state and development prospects, which provoked your thinking on death.

曹：而且，这三个词语与你之前的作品脉络有迹可循，比如在《看电影》系列中就有一些表现情欲的画面，如《青春》《爱恨情仇》等，而在2011年的《盛世晚宴》中，借由社会中的财富集中者之口，思考权力在社会中的现行状态及发展可能，并引发了你对死亡的思考。

He: Yes, even though it is a grand subject, but it’s embedded in ubiquitous creative practices. In particular, power can be divided into public power, private power, shared power, the way in which the wealthy uses and distinguishes these “powers” is in fact a warning for me, their thoughts on death is equally pertinent to everyone else.

何：是的，虽然这是一个庞大的命题，但也蕴含在无处不在的创作中。具体来说权力可以分为公权、私权与共权，财富拥有者们怎样行使和甄别这些“权力”其实对我也是一种警示，他们面对死亡的思索同样也是所有人需要面对的问题。

《永恒》 "Eternity"; 青铜、24K黄金 Bronze、24K gold; 尺寸可变 Vriable Size; 2007-2013 

展览现场 Exhibition Site

Cao: You’ve mentioned that many people don’t have ultimate ideals, then, what is yours? How do you see death?

曹：你刚才说到很多人都没有终极理想，你有什么终极理想？你怎么看待死亡？

He: I am have ultimate ideals, and my goal is my artworks will be collected by art museums, that will leave an impact to billions of people in the history of art, and one can imagine the difficulty. But most people are thinking of living and dying, eating and drinking, reproducing offspring. With this ultimate ideal, I would spend my effort in my lifetime to achieve it, and I wouldn’t want to leave this beautiful world. The world is wonderful, doesn't mean that there are only wonderful things in this world. It has flaws, yet the imperfections make it wonderful. I am interested in the subject of death, because it symbolizes eternity. An important work in this exhibition, Eternity consists of 36 skulls collected from all five continents spanning over three billion years, and one of a modern person. The evolutionary chronology is marked with these 37 skulls, among them, including the “Peking man”, “Yuan Someone”, it took almost 10 years since I began this project in 2006, and I’ve been collecting and organizing. 

何：我是一个有终极理想的人，我的理想目标就是让我创作的作品进入美术馆的收藏，能在艺术史上留名影响几十亿人，难度可想而知。但是，更多的人选择生生死死吃吃喝喝，想到的只有繁衍子孙。我有这样的终极理想，肯定是会在有生之年为之努力，不愿离开这个美好的世界，我说世界美好，并不是说这个世界只有美好的事物，它当然也有瑕疵，正是因为有不完美，才会美好。我对死亡这个话题很感兴趣，因为它代表着永恒。这次展览我最重要的一件作品《永恒》。它是由36个自三千多万年前至近代的五大洲出土的头骨以及一个现代人头骨组成，从猿人过渡到现代人类的完整的一个线索共37个，其中包括“北京人”“元谋人”等跨度大到三千万年，基本上用了我2006年一直到现在的十年时间，一直在进行收集整理。

盛世晚宴 Supper in Great Times 布面油画 Oil on Canvas 280x1200cm 2011

Cao: We mentioned Dinner Party, in fact I think it’s closely related to this exhibition, other than its thoughts on power and death, the composition in Dinner Party appropriates the classic piece of The Last Supper, likewise, a highly exposed icon in the art world, the skull, is equally a critical element in this exhibition. Dali used the female body to collage into a skull, Damien Hirst inlaid a skull with diamonds, Alexander McQueen and Michael Jackson have invariably adopted this icon, how have you decided to break away from your usual thoughts to adopt such a highly cliché icon?

曹：刚才我们提到了《盛世晚宴》，其实我觉得《盛世晚宴》和这次展览的作品有着密切的联系，除了权力和死亡的思考外，《盛世晚宴》中作品构图是对《最后的晚餐》经典作品图示的借用异曲同工，这次展览同样触及了一个在艺术界出镜率非常高的形象-骷髅头。达利用女人体的形状拼出了骷髅头的形象，达明.赫斯特，将一个骷髅头镶嵌了钻石，亚历山大.麦昆以及迈克尔.杰克逊也都运用这一素材，运用如此出镜率高的形象，何老师是怎么突破惯有思维藩篱的？

He: I think the use of classical icons is determined by specific necessity of my art practice, I don’t mind at all that other artists have used this element. After all, in the practice of contemporary art, the so-called conceptual thinking, pushing boundaries in the artistic medium are analogies to the spirit of contemporary art, my work is different from theirs entirely, as my thinking is independent.

何：我认为传统经典图示的借用是根据我创作的具体需求进行的，我一点都不在乎其他艺术家也用过的元素，毕竟在当代艺术的创作中，所谓的观念思维、媒介创新等不排除是一种对当代艺术精神的比附创作，我的这个作品与他们完全不一样，我有自己的独立思考。

展览现场 Exhibition Site

Cao: What is your view on the appropriation of the ready-made in contemporary art? You have pour in a lot of funding into this project, using gold, bronze, white marble, ceramic and other precious materials.

曹：那何老师怎么看待当代艺术中的一些现成品的利用？因为你这次展览投入了很高的费用，运用黄金，青铜，汉白玉、陶瓷等比较贵重的材料。

He: In my art practice, I respect “minimalism” and I appreciate contemporary artists’ recycling and reuse of ready-mades. For myself, I am less inclined to use metal wires, straws and various inexpensive objects in making my works. I am serious and meticulous about my artwork, especially in choosing materials. To a certain degree, gold transgresses the subjects on “power, erotic desires and death”, of course, the white marble in my artworks are of grade A quality, I wouldn’t choose pieces with flaws, it represents purity and fragility. The subject of my work determines the choice in the materials for my work.

何：在艺术创作中，我其实是尊重“极简主义”以及当代艺术家的对现成品的再利用创作。但是作为我个人，还是比较排斥将铁丝、稻草等廉价物品摆设后就当创作的方式。我对创作其实是非常的严谨精细，尤其材质的挑选，从某种意义上黄金将“权力、情欲、死亡”这一主题串联，当然作品中用到的汉白玉都是用的一级汉白玉，有一点瑕疵我都不会采用，它代表纯洁无暇但易碎。我作品材质的选择其实都与我展览的主题有很深层次的因果关系。

展览现场 Exhibition Site

Cao: With our previous conversation, the works shown in this exhibition in terms of form and content have subversive quality, what are your expectations?

曹：通过前面的对话，这个展览从作品形式、内容的确很有自我颠覆性，你有怎样的期待？

He: I have invested all of my financial resources, materials and energy into this exhibition, it's the essence of my efforts over the years, and an important presentation of my artistic thinking, of course, Director Sun Yongzeng has given me tremendous amount of support, I believe it is an exhibition worth looking forward to.

何：这个展览投入了我所有的财力物力和精力，它凝聚了我多年心血的，是我对多年艺术创作再思考的重要展览，孙永增馆长也给予了很大的支持，我相信这将是一个值得期待的展览。

《美丽人生》 "Beautiful Life"; 瓷 Ceramic; 23cm x 16cm x 16cm x 108; 2013-2015